Along with Jason Clark, I’ve struggled with the relationship with the gifts of the Spirit and new structures for the local church.
My background includes both the Assemblies of God and the Vineyard. The former has had some interest in emerging models for Church, especially in the AGTS (Earl Creps). The latter, surprisingly, has really been less receptive of late (the US version of the Vineyard, that is).
Without getting myself into a heap of trouble, I’ll just say that while there are extremely supportive pastors with the Vineyard US… the higher-ups seem to think its just a phase we’ll grow out of.
I believe that God moves in powerful, supernatural ways and the emerging church risks losing this part of God’s activity in favor of philosophies which are attractive to both participants and presumably the culture at large.
The problem is… I don’t know how it works outside of a Charismatic church structure. Sad, but true. I’ve heard stories of God’s moves in more emerging structures, but I haven’t really witnessed it myself. And I’m not sure these “moves” are requirements for a local church as much as I’m disturbed by the clear lack of it. To the point where if the supernatural gifts are exercised in a local emerging church body that body is clearly the exception and not the rule.
Alan…
I met you in Venice this year…I pastor a community in Santa Clarita close to your old digs. MY background? 16 years Roman Catholic. 16 years conservative fundamentalist cessationist, 6 years pro charismatic (decidedly unpentecostal) while attending a Foursquare Seminary, now 3 years of emergence convergence of these three rivers (our church is Three Rivers).
Having dabbled in the “inner courts” of all three traditions I have found them not much different from each other. All contain people….some bright, some mean, some narrow minded, some open minded, some friendly, some expressive, some reserved, and on and on. The tradition seems to carry little effect on the type of people they are. All traditions produce judgements on non-adherents at some level. No tradition is really more “spiritual” than the other in my opinion.
Thus your observation concerning the movement of the Spirit as you know it leads me to think you will have to make a choice if the public display of supernatural gifts are important to you. The raw and still undefined emergent model does not seem to be the medium for “God moves” (aka the public display of tongues) at this time. Perhaps in the future the relationship will find its way…though the judgment I find with my “spirit-filled” brothers and sisters upon those who are not so(and this is where I find my greatest departure with them) seems to make the two incompatible at this time. It would take a tremendous softening on the non-essentials of the faith….yet it seems it is the “non-essentials” that you are seeking. A conundrum.
My experience is the farther we stray from loving God and loving our neighbor leads to preferences that lead to division. I see the entire Emergent movement as one big “God move” and God moving in it constantly. Perhaps these moves just don’t fit your traditional paradigms.
jim urbanovich
June 30th, 2005
The same questions are coming up here in Canada as well, and I have to echo the surprise that the Vineyard in general is not leading the way.
I’m currently in the midst of a major piece of writing on being post-charismatic, as I believe as you do — that without the supernatural working of the Spirit through emerging churches, and the gifts of the Spirit being released to help bring the Body to maturity, we’re in trouble.
robbymac
July 1st, 2005
Alan -
do you think the emergent church is opposed to the gifts, or just not familar with them?
it seems that when we let the gifts flow through us in a natural way, most anyone if open to the idea.
maybe it’s just the weird charismatic personality traits that accompany the gifts that scares off emergent people?
tammy
July 2nd, 2005